美瑜跟蚊子是多年的好友，然而這段友情居然是從一隻錄音筆開始？檸檬被邀約的時候，什麼都還不太確定，怎麼就答應了？兩位來聊聊帶領戲劇團體的經驗，還有檸檬的大實話XDD～～歡迎收聽～
本集使用音樂「月光海灘」Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
依據知識分享授權：依歸屬 4.0 授權
<錄音全文>
雅婷：歡迎收聽菊花獨白podcast第二集，我是雅婷
Yating: Welcome to the Sec. episode of The Anus Monologues podcast. I am Yating.
美瑜：我是美瑜，今天邀請了兩位，我們在菊花獨白的工作坊裡面，很重要的夥伴，那其中一位是我已經認識了十多年的老朋友，然後另外一位是由於這位老朋友的關係，然後而能夠有機會再去認識她，那我先直接讓他們兩位自我介紹好了，免得我等一下又講太多。好，請～
Meiyu: I am Meiyu. Today we invited two very important partners in The Anus Monologues workshop. One of them is an old friend that I have known for more than ten years, and the other one is because of the relationship with this old friend. And if I have the opportunity to get to know her again, I’ll let them introduce themselves first, so as not to have to wait and talk too much. OK, please~
蚊子：HI我是蚊子
Wentz: I am Wentz
檸檬：HI我是檸檬
Ningmeng: I am Ningmeng
美瑜：蚊子跟檸檬，謝謝！歡迎你們來到現場，然後大家可以聽得出來他們兩個的聲音，現在非常的那個平板，因為兩個不知道為什麼，好像每次，我有注意到蚊子每次在面對這種，不管是麥克風，或者是攝影機的時候，就會變成這個樣子，你知道嗎？
Meiyu: Wentz & Ningmeng. Thanks! Welcome to the scene, and you can hear the voices of them. Now the voices is very different, because they don’t know why, but it seems that every time, I have noticed that mosquitoes are facing this kind of thing every time, no matter it is When it’s a microphone or a camera, it becomes like this, you know?
蚊子：就是畢竟我是人來瘋的人，這裡觀眾太少了，
Wentz:After all, I am people- excited, and there are too few viewers here.
美瑜：是這樣嗎？好，那可不可以請蚊子介紹一下就是我們兩個，你還記不記得我們兩個是怎麼見面的，以及菊花獨白到底是怎麼生產出來的，你還記得那個時候發生什麼事嗎？
Meiyu: is that so? Okay, can you please introduce the two of us, Wentz? Do you still remember how we met, and how The Anus Monologues was produced? Do you still remember what happened at that time?
蚊子：怎麼見面？我們兩個怎麼認識的嗎？
Wentz: Do you mean how the two of us met?
美瑜：對，我們兩個怎麼認識的
Meiyu: Yes, how did we two meet?
蚊子：這個我倒是印象挺深刻的，是在某一個研究所的課堂，然後我們都是第一次上那堂課，然後他到淡水去上課，然後我不認識美瑜，然後，但是呢？他就拿了一個錄音筆給我，然後叫我坐在前面，錄音給你喔！你誰啊？我又不認識你誰，然後我就錄著錄著，老師就說這個錄音筆是誰的，有說可以錄音嗎？原來妳沒有問過老師啊！所以我對這個人印象非常之深刻。
Wentz: This is quite impressive to me. It was a class at a certain research institute, and it was the first time for us to take that class. Then he went to Tamsui to take classes. Then I didn’t know Meiyu, and then, but what? He gave me a recorder and asked me to sit in front and record it for you! Who are you? I don’t know you, so I was recording, and the teacher asked who this recorder belonged to. Did he say it could be recorded? It turns out you never asked the teacher! So I am very impressed by this person.
雅婷：不論什麼事情，她都要去衝撞一下，跟踩一下界線，看會不會怎麼樣，只不過她這一次把引火線交給另外一個人。
Yating: No matter what happened, she had to make a collision and step on the boundary to see what would happen, but this time she handed over the fuse to another person.
蚊子：我又不敢說不，是他
Wentz: I’m not brave enough to say no, it’s her
美瑜：你不說
Meiyu: you don’t say
蚊子：我是一個不敢說的人
Wentz: I am a person who does not have the courage to speak out
美瑜：那我們其實合作了很多年，那駿文可不可以也講一講，因為我也從來沒有聽你說過，就是從帕養團，然後到菊花，對你來說那個轉變，或者是那個過程，你經歷了什麼？
Meiyu: Well, we have actually cooperated for many years. Can Wentz also talk about it, because I have never heard you say that from Positive health group to The Anus Monologues, what was the transformation or the process for you? What have you been through?
蚊子：我覺得轉變是因為菊花的主題更多元，然後成員也更多元，所以因為那個多元，所以我們好像可以從各種不同角度去談議題，然後各種不同角度，來理解我們彼此到底經驗到什麼，然後帕養團比較像是我們一群有相同經驗的人，然後相互扶持的那種感覺，然後菊花獨白，可能更多的是那我們這一群人帶著自己的故事來，我們要做一些什麼事情
Wentz: I think the change is because the theme of The Anus Monologue is more diverse, and the members are also more diverse, so because of that diversity, we seem to be able to talk about issues from various angles, and then understand each other’s experiences from various angles. What, then the Positive health group is more like a group of us who have the same experience, and then the feeling of supporting each other, and then The Anus Monologue , maybe more of a group of us coming with our own stories, we have to do some what happened
美瑜：那今年菊花獨白其實已經做了第二年了，然後你也跟我們旁邊這一位，你邀請來的夥伴一起合作了第二年了，對不對？
Meiyu: Well, this year’s The Anus Monologue has actually been done for the second year, and you’ve also been working with the partner next to us, the partner you invited, for the second year, right?
蚊子：她？她可是我的戲劇老師呢！
Wentz: She? She is my drama teacher!
檸檬：別這麼說！
Ningmeng: Don’t mention it.
美瑜：好，那既然駿文已經提到了這件事情，那我們也請接下來檸檬，然後可以說一說，介紹一下你自己，然後同時也說一說，你跟駿文之間的合作的那個經驗。
Wentz: Okay, since Wentz has already mentioned this matter, let’s take the lemon next step, and then you can talk about it, introduce yourself, and then also talk about the experience of cooperation between you and Wentz. .
蚊子：對啊！像我有個問題很想問檸檬，就是我當初在邀檸檬的時候，我沒有想到這個邀請，這麼容易這麼輕易就被妳答應了
Wentz: yes! Like, I have a question that I really want to ask Ningmeng. When I invited Ningmeng, I didn’t expect that you would accept the invitation so easily.
檸檬：喔～我也覺得很神奇，因為我本來是比較是主動邀約或者是想要幹嘛的人，其實很少有人就是用這樣的方式，如果用人類圖的說法，就是我那時候薦骨大聲的歡呼：去吧！去吧！然後那時候你在邀請我的時候，你的眼睛是閃閃發亮的，然後你講的也讓我覺得很興奮，雖然我有講的很快，又在7-11不是很安靜的地方，然後雖然我那時候還搞不太清楚要幹嘛誒！
Ningmeng: Oh~ I also think it’s amazing, because I was usually the one who took the initiative to invite people or wanted to do something. In fact, very few people used this method. If I use the human diagram, my bones were loud at that time. Cheers: Go ahead! Go for it! Then when you invited me, your eyes were shining, and what you said also made me feel very excited, even though I spoke very quickly, and it was not a very quiet place in 7-11, and then Although I didn’t quite know what to do at that time!
蚊子：那時候也搞不清楚我們到底要幹嘛！
Wentz: At that time, we had no idea what we were going to do!
美瑜：你那時候到底是怎麼跟他說的？
Meiyu: What did you tell her then?
檸檬：其實我們好像講很快，我就說喔！好啊！那我們就開始聊天，我可能再感受一下，是不是可以談得來的夥伴吧，對，然後他那時候跟我講的時候，我就覺得他是興奮的，然後我覺得如果是一件讓人興奮的事情，是好玩的事情，我也沒有什麼理由說不，然後再加上，對啦！那時候我是戲劇老師，就會覺得我要支持我的學生。
Ningmeng: In fact, we seem to be talking very quickly, so I’ll just say it! OK! Then we started chatting, and I might feel again whether we were compatible partners, yes. Then when he told me about it at that time, I felt that he was excited, and then I felt that if it was something that would make Things that make people excited are fun things, and I have no reason to say no, and then on top of that, right! When I was a drama teacher, I felt like I had to support my students.
美瑜：你那個時候是怎麼去開那個口，因為我記得，我們那個時候應該有跟你提到，我們那個經費其實是很不穩定的，後來實際上也真的不多，所以我對於他還願意接第二年，其實我也蠻驚訝的，不過我很想知道駿文那個時候是怎麼去跟他談這件事情？
Meiyu: How did you say it at that time? Because I remember that we should have mentioned to you at that time that our funding was actually very unstable, and it was actually not much in the end, so I was actually quite surprised that he was still willing to take over for the second year. , but I really want to know how Junwen talked to him about this matter at that time?
駿文：我大概講了一下，我們帕養團就是一群愛滋藥癮，然後我們想要再走出來，多做更多一點事情，然後帶入菊花、肛門這個沒有人在談的主題，然後年底會有一個演出
Wentz: I roughly said that our Positive health group is a group of AIDS＆drug addicts, and then we want to step out, do more things, and then bring in the anus, which no one is talking about, and then at the end of the year there will be a show
美瑜：就這麼平舖直敘嗎？
Meiyu: Is it just so straightforward?
檸檬：恩，然後我就問說排練場在哪裡，他說應該是在那個中正紀念堂附近，然後我們就打開了google map然後去看一下，那個環境就是他說的那一條路，然後就講排練場，然後他有吞吞吐吐的，說到經費這件事，但是，因為我本來的工作就是用戲劇做倡議，那我也知道這樣的事情，大部分一開始就是經費都不會到位的，對，但是總要開始，所以就我本來不是會很在意，尤其是如果你是初期還不穩定的時候，經費不穩定也是合理的，所以如果是第一年我通常不會在意這個。
Ningmeng: Well, then I asked where the rehearsal venue was, and he said it should be near the Chiang Kai-shek Memorial Hall. Then we opened Google Maps and took a look. The environment was the road he mentioned, and then he talked about the rehearsal venue. , and then he was hesitant when it came to funding. However, because my original job is to use drama to advocate, I also know that most of the funds will not be in place from the beginning, yes, but You have to start, so I wouldn’t care about it at first, especially if you are in the early stage and it is not stable, it is reasonable for the funding to be unstable, so if it is the first year, I usually don’t care about it.
蚊子：所以檸檬就在一個經費也不確定，那到底最後的演出要幹嘛也不確定，然後地點呢？那時候也說真的也不是這麼的確定的情況底下，就接了。
Wentz: So Ningmeng is not sure about the funding, so it’s not sure what the final performance will be, and where will it be? At that time, it was true that it was not so certain, so she accepted it.
檸檬：對，但是其實老實說第一堂課的時候，我要出門前是非常忐忑的，因為我不知道我會遇到誰，然後是什麼樣的氛圍什麼樣的感覺，然後我一到場的時候，我就黏在蚊子旁邊，然後去感受，然後就有同學會，我記得第一堂課應該是見面會就有類似工作坊，然後同學進來就說痾～我到時候可以不要公布嗎？我這個人比較低調比較害羞，然後大概過一分鐘之後，他就開始扭屁股
Ningmeng: Yes, but to be honest, during the first class, I was very nervous,because I didn’t know who I would meet, what kind of atmosphere and feeling I would have, and when I arrived, I just stuck next to the mosquito and felt it, and then there was a class reunion. I remember that the first class was supposed to be a meet-and-greet and there was a similar workshop, and then the classmates came in and said I was sick~ Can I not announce it then? I am a low-key and shy person, and after about a minute, he started to shake his bottom!
美瑜：我現在知道是誰了
Meiyu: I know who it is now
蚊子：只有那個人會那樣
Wentz: Only he would do that
雅婷：只有那個人，只有那個人！
Yating: Only he! Only he!
檸檬：對，然後慢慢發現我是在場唯一沒有互相認識彼此的，人就默默的存在著，對，我也蠻意外，的就是後來好像大家也就很輕易很快速的，就接受我的存在，這樣。
Ningmeng: Yes, and then I slowly discovered that I was the only person present who didn’t know each other, and they just existed silently. Yes, I was quite surprised, but later on, everyone seemed to accept my existence very easily and quickly. In this way .
美瑜：你們自己在過去的經驗裡面，你們的比如說像這樣子的比較特別的團體，我知道你們之前也在其他的，不管是身心需要協助的這些朋友們也有類似的招生的狀況，妳自己會覺得在菊花來的人，然後跟你們在其他的團體的人，有什麼樣子的雷同嗎？還是他們身上有什麼樣的特質？
Meiyu: In your own past experience, for example, your more special groups like this, I know that you have also had similar enrollment situations in other friends who need help, whether it is physical or mental, you will feel that Are there any similarities between the people who come from The Anus Monologues and the people who are in other groups like you? Or what qualities do they have?
檸檬：如果說是一般的戲劇表演課，然後有收不少錢的，反而報名的人很多，或者是你就是主打，我要做的是療癒，喔！人也很多，但是如果你是要從議題出發，其實老實說我覺得，我們在我們的團體，或者是我帶的身心障礙團體裡面，每一堂課都會得到不同的療癒感，可是如果你抱著想要被療癒而來的時候，你反而會忘記我當初我我需要被療癒的是什麼，因爲目標反而設定在一個，結果而不是起頭的地方，所以那個療癒是永無止盡的，你這次結束了，然後那個東西都一直還在，然後你就不停的不停的去追尋療癒這件事情，所以這個課會很好開，很好招生。
Ningmeng: If it is a general drama performance class, and some charge a lot of money, but there are many people signing up, or you are the main one, what I want to do is healing, oh! There are a lot of people, but if you want to start from the topic, I honestly think that in our group, or in the disability group I lead, we will get a different sense of healing in every class, but if you hold When you come here with the intention of being healed, you will forget what it is that you need to be healed in the first place, because the goal is set at the end instead of the beginning, so the healing will never end. Yes, you ended this time, and then that thing is still there, and then you continue to pursue the matter of healing. Therefore, this class will be easy to open and easy to recruit students.
美瑜：所以我們下次要這樣開課嗎？
Meiyu: So should we start classes like this next time?
檸檬：誒？但是如果你是一個需要，你也要付出一點力氣去理解議題，那我覺得相對大家就是，喔我很關心，可是我要付出這個時間，我要可能要拋頭露面，然後時間就是金錢啊！就算我不用付錢上課，那我覺得大家就會評估一下，他們可能就會再觀望，或者是說我的支持，就是我成為觀眾，有可能，然後再加上我覺得像愛滋毒害，他本來就是比較檯面上是小眾，所以如果你今天是相關經驗者，或者是你曾經有需要陪伴這樣的人的人，他們要在出來可能也是一個相對的壓力。
Ningmeng: Eh? But if you are in need, you have to put in some effort to understand the issue. Then I think everyone is like, oh, I care very much, but I have to spend this time, I have to possibly show up, and then time is money! Even if I don’t have to pay to take classes, then I think everyone will evaluate it, and they may wait and see, or say that my support means that I will become an audience, which is possible, and then plus I think it is like AIDS poisoning, he Originally, it was relatively niche, so if you have relevant experience today, or you have had people who needed to accompany such people in the past, it may also be a relative pressure for them to come out.
美瑜：駿文呢？我看你一直若有所思
Meiyu: Wentz? I see you have been thinking deeply
蚊子：不好意思你剛剛的問題是什麼，我若有所思是我贊同檸檬說的
Wentz: Sorry, what was your question just now? My thoughtfulness means that I agree with what Ningmeng said.
檸檬：就是說在不同的團體裡面的，有什麼相同或相異之處嗎？
Ningmeng: That is to say, are there any similarities or differences among different groups?
美瑜：對啊！因為你也經歷了不少的團體，也參加了很多次的不一樣的練習，或者是跟其他的夥伴參加了
Meiyu: Yes! Because you have experienced many groups and participated in many different exercises, or participated with other partners.
檸檬：對！你參加的戲劇團體比我多耶！
Ningmeng: Yes! You’ve joined more drama groups than me!
蚊子：可能是喔！我之前有做過幾場演出，就是為了精神疾病的照顧者家屬做的演出，然後，那幾場演出是讓我決定不再用那樣的戲劇方法工作，因為我們只做演出，所以每次邀請他們來講故事，然後你就會知道那些照顧者，在平常他們的處境當中有多麼的辛苦、無助跟累，我們只是一場演出，演完就走人了，然後反而是，我記得那幾場演出我印象很深，每次做完我都覺得我在消費他們，就是來給你們看，我們是一群會演戲的人，我們可以接住你們的故事喔～可是你聽到他們講完故事看我們演出完，回到座位上那個眼神的疲累。
Wentz: Maybe! I had done a few performances before, for families of caregivers of people with mental illness, and those performances made me decide not to work with that theater method anymore, because we only do performances, so every invitation They come and tell the story, and then you will know how hard, helpless and tired the caregivers are in their normal situation. We are just a performance, and we leave after the performance, but then, I remember that I was deeply impressed by several performances. Every time I finished them, I felt like I was consuming them. We are here to show you. We are a group of people who are good at acting. We can capture your stories~ But when you hear them finish After watching our performance, we returned to our seats with tired eyes.
美瑜：這一點我覺得你的觀察蠻細緻的，不過我想要多問一點，因為我覺得這件事情很重要，就是你剛剛講說，如果只是邀請他們來說出自己的故事，甚至讓他們去演出自己的故事，然後接下來，他們感受到的卻是疲累，可是他們沒有從那個過程裡面去獲得某些東西嗎？說說看你的觀察。
Meiyu: I think your observation is quite detailed on this point, but I want to ask more, because I think this matter is very important. What you just said is that if you just invite them to tell their stories, or even let them perform Their own story, and then what they felt next was fatigue, but didn’t they gain something from that process? Tell me about your observations.
蚊子：我覺得可能多少有抒發，可是回到他們的生命現場，那個他們需要照顧的人依然還在那邊，所以可能只是抒發心情這件事情，對他們的生命沒有什麼太大的幫助，所以我覺得後來在做帕養團、在做菊花獨白，在這裡，看到我更想要做跟更不一樣的地方，就是我們把很多生命問題在這邊，然後，藉由我們彼此的關係，那個得到的力量，跟我只是抒發我的心情很不一樣，多了更多的，我知道這邊會有一群人在，我知道這邊有社會上的陌生人竟然是可以理解我的。
Wentz: I think there may be some expression, but when they return to the scene of their lives, the person they need to take care of is still there, so maybe just expressing their feelings will not be of much help to their lives, so I think Later, I was doing the Positive health group and the The Anus Monologues. Here, I saw that I wanted to do something more different. That is, we put many life issues here, and then, through our relationship with each other, we got The power is very different from just expressing my feelings. It is more powerful. I know that there will be a group of people here. I know that there are strangers in society who can understand me.
美瑜：聽起來是一件很棒的事情，但其實我自己也不知道，他到底可以在今年的第二年，然後他到底可以帶給我們什麼，其實我們後面也會邀請更多的學員一起來分享，我們其實有很多的學員，他們也有參加不同的工作坊的經驗，我也我記得上個禮拜五的時候，我們其中一位學員也跟我提到說，就是他覺得在菊花怎麼會跟他以前參加的工作坊的經驗，其實很不一樣，希望我們之後可以有機會邀請他來多說一點這樣子。
Meiyu: It sounds great! But actually I don’t know what he can bring to us in the second year of this year. In fact, we will also invite more students to share it later. , we actually have many students, and they also have experience in participating in different workshops. I remember last Friday, one of our students also mentioned to me, how could he think that he would be with him in The Anus Monologues? The experience of the previous workshops was actually very different. I hope we can have the opportunity to invite him to talk more about this in the future.
雅婷：今天大家分享的真的很多，然後，因為我們時間的關係，我們把精彩的內容分成兩集，所以今天就先到這邊囉！那請繼續收聽我們第三集喔！大家掰掰！
Yating: Everyone has really shared a lot today, and because of our time constraints, we have divided the exciting content into two episodes, so let’s stop here today! Then please continue to listen to our third episode! Goodbye everyone!
美瑜蚊子檸檬：掰掰～
Meiyu＆Wentz＆Ningmeng: Goodbye!
＃性別＃弱勢＃受壓迫者劇場＃藥癮＃支持團體